Vitalik's 42 Days in Chiang Mai

Author: Zhou Zhou, Foresight News

Chiang Mai, a large international village, where Vitalik recently lived for about 42 days. For him, who flies an average of 55 times a year and "moves" almost every week, it is rare to live in a city for so long.

During these 42 days, a bottom-up, decentralized, and growing social life experiment took place. In the end, more than 1,000 blockchain practitioners from all over the world arrived in Chiang Mai one after another, spontaneously forming 8 or 9 cities and villages (Pop-Up City). They are going to build a "Web3 City" here for six weeks.

Vitalik said this is Zuzalu 2.0. Since he launched Zuzalu, the first "flash city experiment" in Montenegro in 2023, he has been looking for ways to continue this social experiment. "Watching the development of Zuzalu 2.0, I feel like I'm watching how my son grows up step by step." Vitalik told me.

The crypto industry often wears two distinctive faces. Behind one face is a variety of high-risk financial transactions and activities, and behind the other face is the continued existence of some idealists trying to carry out some innovative practices based on the decentralized concept and incentive mechanism of blockchain.

"In these six weeks, there were a total of 1,422 participants and 1,663 activities, including meditation, hiking, Muay Thai, sound healing, Web3 technology lectures, and programming geek training camps... The village with the largest number of people, Edge City, has nearly 500 people." Data from the Social Layer application shows. Here, builders use the Social Layer to launch activities instead of the more standardized and commercialized Luma. There are also some "villages" outside Edge City, such as the "Invisible Garden" with global ZK developers as the core and the "Shanhaiwu" with Chinese Web3 practitioners as the core, both of which have more than 100 people. This allows experiments like Zuzalu to be passed down.

The great increase in the density and breadth of Web3 talents has made this a temporary "amusement park" for Vitalik's thoughts. Vitalik visits two or three "Web3 villages" almost every day to communicate with the villagers. When he told me this, I found that he knew the location and characteristics of each village by heart, even down to the distance and direction of each village.

The intensive visits and conversations undoubtedly brought him a lot of new ideas, and some new systematic thinking took shape in his mind. In this conversation, Vitalik talked about his thoughts on Ethereum ecosystem applications at length. He pointed out that the technology has reached a certain level of maturity and it is time to start paying attention to applications. He shared several of the latest Web3 applications he learned about in Chiang Mai. In addition, he also talked about his observations on encryption institutions such as Solana and Binance, as well as Tencent AI Labs, "The Three-Body Problem" and other Chinese elements, and finally shared his life, habits and hobbies.

For this reason, Foresight News invited Vitalik to a "village" in Chiang Mai, Shanhaiwu, for an offline interview, and asked him to share his observations and thoughts during this period. The following is the text content.

42 days in Chiang Mai

Joe: Hello everyone, I am Zhou Zhou from Foresight News. I am very happy to invite Ethereum founder Vitalik to do this interview. Vitalik, can you introduce yourself?

Vitalik: Hi, I’m Vitalik Buterin, a well-known Dogecoin holder.

Joe: A very iconic introduction. You stayed in Chiang Mai for a long time this time, more than 30 days. What kind of people and things attracted you?

Vitalik: I often travel from one place to another. I remember that I took an average of 55 flights a year, not including transfers. However, in Chiang Mai, I didn’t move for six weeks. I felt that this was a good opportunity to work and rest at the same time. Of course, I found that I had a lot of activities every day in Chiang Mai.

Last year in Montenegro, I did an experiment called Zuzalu. Everyone said that it was very successful as an experiment, but we didn’t know what the next step would be. In the period between Token2049 in Singapore and Devcon in Bangkok (about 7 weeks), some people launched pop-up activities in Chiang Mai. At first, there were only a few, and then more and more. It can be said that it eventually evolved into Zuzalu 2.0, which is supported by the same fund (Zuzalu Fund). I am the initiator and founder of Zuzalu 1.0. Watching the development of Zuzalu 2.0 makes me feel like watching how my son grows up step by step.

Here, there are really many interesting things and interesting communities. There are seven or eight relatively large Pop-Ups, each with its own unique characteristics. For example, (we are now) in Shanhaiwu, there are many interesting activities happening here, some technical, some non-technical, and various meditation activities.

Invisible Garden is 900 meters away from here. They focus on ZK and Ethereum-related things. 3 kilometers to the east is MegaZu. They are a project that studies Ethereum L2 technology and emphasizes developer culture. They are doing Bootcamp (high-intensity training and learning) for developing applications. One kilometer east of MegaZu is Web3 Village, a Vietnamese community with some interesting speeches and activities. One kilometer further east is Edge City, which is very large. They may have 300 people now, and there are different contents every week. They had an event related to stablecoins last week, and one about Dapp this week.

Every time you go to a pop up, you will find that the people are different, the things they do are different, and the topics they talk about are different, so it is particularly interesting.

Joe: You participate in activities almost every day in Chiang Mai. In this process, what new changes have you made in your understanding and knowledge of Crypto? Vitalik: In Shanhaiwu, I found that people in the Ethereum community would discuss two issues. The first question is why they are interested in Ethereum; the second question is what are the challenges of Ethereum. On the Internet, many people have said some ideas that I think are strange, such as Ethereum's values ​​are useless and Crypto is a gambling market. But in the Ethereum community, there are some people, including many Chinese, who participate in Ethereum because we have some values ​​and life ideals that we particularly value. We want to create an open world, a decentralized blockchain and platform, and we will do some sustainable applications and some applications that are better for society. People in our community would say this. But we haven't done it for a long time. Why? Because before this year, our technology was not good enough. In 2021, there was only L1, but no L2. The transaction fee of Ethereum's L1 may be $1, $5, or even more. Last year, we had a lot of L2, but these L2 were not secure enough, and their wallets had a poor user experience.

This year, we can see what changes have taken place. First, Optimism and Arbitrum in L2 have reached Stage 1. According to a framework I wrote two or three years ago, if you are not in Stage 1, you are a multi-signature wallet, and there is actually no secure connection with Ethereum. But Optimism or Arbitrum have achieved this. First, security has been improved, and second, transaction fees have been reduced a lot. In February of this year, the average transaction fee on L2 was $0.4, and now it is sometimes $0.004.

There has been an interesting trend in the technology industry over the past two decades. People have come up with some interesting ideas very early, but no one may be able to do it for many years. But suddenly, ten or twenty years later, when the technology becomes good enough, these things come true.

I have been interested in the topic of prediction markets since 2014. I participated in Augur (a prediction market platform founded in 2014) in 2020, but there were not many users at that time, and my own user experience was very poor. I wrote an article "Prediction Markets Tales from the Election" in early 2021, and I made $58,000, but I paid a transaction fee of $1,000. Now Polymarket is based on Polygon, which can be said to be almost free.

There have been prediction markets since 2014, and entrepreneurs have been trying to do prediction markets for ten years, but it was not until 2024 that Polymarket suddenly became popular. Why can these applications become a reality? I think two reasons are very critical, namely lower transaction fees and faster transaction confirmation.

Blockchain is not a single technology. It may require various other technologies to mature before applications will explode. If you are a developer and you want to make a blockchain application, the first case is that users have to pay $5 per transaction, the second case is that users pay $0.5 per transaction, and the third case is $0.005. In the first case, the only application that is likely to succeed is a high-value, high-risk financial product.

Farcaster is another very interesting example. They use a hybrid on-chain and off-chain architecture. Their important information, such as account registration, is on-chain, and the information sent by users is off-chain. They have a very interesting decentralized off-chain storage method. Every time you register an account or you store important information, they have to issue a transaction, which requires a transaction fee. If a transaction is $5 or $15, then this application is completely impossible to succeed. But if the transaction fee is $0.001 or $0.05, it is possible.

So our industry has entered such a situation. Everyone likes to say that many more idealistic blockchain practitioners want to do non-financial, want to solve identity problems, want to do some decentralized governance, etc., but the only success is high-risk finance. Because if the transaction fee is $5, high-risk finance is the only thing you can do. If the transaction fee is reduced to $0.005, many things that were impossible before become possible.

So I think a lot of blockchain applications have a new trend change, and many things that were impossible before have become possible now.

Joe: In addition to Polymarket and Farcaster, which applications you often mention, what other interesting applications did you see during your stay in Chiang Mai?

Vitalik: I found that MegaZu is doing some very interesting applications.

In 2018, I saw a very interesting application that wanted to make a crypto event platform. Sometimes there are 200 people who sign up for an event, but the organizer and the registrants don’t know whether there will be 100, 50, or 20 people who will participate in the end.

So the model they want to do is "trusted commitment". If they participate, the applicants have to send 0.01 or 0.02 ether. If they don't participate in the end, their ether will be gone. If they participate, they will get a part of the ether provided by other people who didn't participate. This will ensure that most of the applicants will participate in the event.

I think the idea of ​​this application is very interesting. It can help us solve some problems in daily life. This application was made in 2018, but there was no more news after that. I guess it was because the blockchain transaction fees and user experience in 2018 were not good enough. Now, MegaZu has many developers who are working on applications with this idea. I think this is interesting.

"Many Web3 applications are now possible"

Joe: How do you and the Ethereum Foundation view the current situation that the community believes that there is too much infrastructure and not enough applications?

Vitalik：I have seen some people who criticize our community. They say that Ethereum philosophers like to talk about technology and don't like to talk about applications.

Why is that? At the beginning, we couldn't do applications very well because our technology was not yet complete. Now our technology has reached a certain level, and now we can do application development. So now we need a community that does applications. Whether it is technology or application, we need both. This is also the advantage of the diversity of the Ethereum community.

I think the best way is not to tell people who do L1 to do applications. The best thing they can do is to care about L1 issues. What we need to do is to give some new people more opportunities and give them more space in the community. The first point is to give them freedom, and the second point is to give them more support.

Joe：Will there be more specific measures?

Vitalik:The first is the support in the community. If some people are doing some important applications, they can say what they are doing in the community, this is the first.

Second, there are many people who are particularly good at making something useful for users, but they are not so good at the blockchain technology and the connection and connection between L1, L2 and wallets. We also need some organizations that are more connected to the team, such as community organizations, hackathons, etc.

Another point is that the foundation is going to expand a team recently. The goal of expanding the team is to maintain more relationships with wallets, such as MetaMask, OKX, Rabby, etc. Because wallets have many direct connections with users.

Joe: What are the top three products you most want to build on Ethereum?

Vitalik:I have mentioned Polymarket and Farcaster many times in the past year, not only because I like these two examples, but because they both represent a very promising Category. Polymarket can be classified as a combination of finance and new media. 20 years ago we had traditional media, 10 years ago we had social media, but now many people don't believe in traditional media and social media.

Everyone is talking about wanting to make better Web3 social media, but just adding a crypto payment function to existing products, but this method has failed. How did social media succeed? When Twitter first came out, the goal was not to be the next Facebook, and when Douyin and Tiktok first came out, the goal was not to be the next Twitter. We need to invent a new category and track, rather than saying that we can do better by making some changes in the existing categories and tracks.

I will put Polymarket in the media category. If I want to know what is happening in the world, I now have a habit of going to Polymarket to see. Or when the media says that something has happened, I will go to Polymarket to see if it is important. Or I can go directly to Polymarket to see if anything important has happened recently. If you see that the amount of bets on an event on Polymarket has become a lot, you will be curious about what happened?

Image source: Polymarket (US election in 2024, $3.6 billion bet globally)

It is interesting that three different ways of media, traditional, social and Web3, exist at the same time. Polymarket has two ways of participating. The first way is that you have money and you want to participate in this market. The second way is that you have no money, but you will look at the results of the market. I think there must be many opportunities for this combination of market and non-market. I don’t know what these opportunities are yet, but I think there will be many such opportunities. This is the first.

For Farcaster, I think social products need to have some crypto elements. The biggest problem for crypto entrepreneurs now is that they are divided into two extremes. One is to only make some applications that can make money but have no long-term sustainability or meaning; the other is to only serve users but have no money at all.

The first problem is that entrepreneurs do not make money, and the second problem is that users are unwilling to participate if they are not idealists. A successful Web3 application will combine these two parts.

SocialFi also has a history outside of blockchain. For example, in 2012, there was a project called Diaspora that wanted to be a decentralized Facebook, but they failed in the end. Now there are some Bluesky, Threads, etc. facing two problems. The first problem is that they can't make money, so they don't have enough resources to do good things.

The second problem is that if the user is not an idealist, what is his goal to move from Twitter? If we find a way to combine these two, it will be perfect. But no one can do it completely yet. How to combine idealism with making money is a very important thing.

Joe: Do you pay attention to applications in the ecosystem such as Solana and TON?

Vitalik: Sometimes I chat with people from Solana about what they are interested in and what topics everyone is thinking about and paying attention to recently. There are really some people who turn Depin into the infrastructure of the Internet or the next generation.

There are also exchanges such as Binance, which have a lot of development in some developing countries. In 2021, we went to Argentina, and I found that many of them would use Crypto, but I found that although many of them were Crypto users, they were not blockchain users.

One ​​Christmas, I was walking outside, and I approached a cafe, and the owner immediately recognized me, and he showed me that he had a Binance account. I asked him if I could use Ethereum to buy their coffee, and he said yes. The payment process takes about 5 minutes, and the transaction confirmation time is particularly long, but this problem has been solved now. The reason why I am also concerned about this topic now is that we hope that some exchanges can accept on-chain transactions on the Ethereum chain after 12 seconds.

Joe: Just now, you said that many people are Crypto users, but not blockchain users. This may be related to the fact that many on-chain behaviors now occur on the web instead of on the mobile phone?

Vitalik: Now there are some wallets that are encouraged, such as Daimo on Base is a good example, and their goal is to be a decentralized wallet.

Ethereum's "Crisis"

Joe: What do you think is the biggest crisis facing Ethereum now? And in the past two years, what do you think has hindered the development of Web3? Vitalik: I wonder if 2022 and 2023 are the most dangerous times. I think we are better now. In 2022, AI broke out, and many people began to think that AI is an opportunity for the future. Crypto is a relatively useless place that can only be used for gambling. Many people with ideals and good influence on the world left Crypto because, as I said before, they were disappointed with Crypto because of some issues about transaction fees and technology. I remember when I went to Silicon Valley in April 2022, I chatted with some well-known AI practitioners, and they all told me that Crypto was useless. This happened before the FTX bankruptcy in 2022. After FTX, the situation became more serious. Now Crypto has made many successful technical progress and has begun to have more success in applications, so I think the current situation is better.

Now I think there is a risk that our community has become very diverse. Some people focus on finance, some people focus on cyberpunk, and some people focus on culture, art, philosophy, etc. Their ideas are all different. A failure situation is that they begin to disrespect each other. Some people only make money-making applications and do nothing else. There are also some who want to do meaningful things but have no money. I hope these two can be combined.

Joe: Solana is becoming more and more powerful. Many people think that it has become the most important competitor of Ethereum. What do you think of this problem?

Vitalik: I think they are really more centralized than Ethereum.

First, it is much more difficult to run a Solana node than an Ethereum node; second, Solana's PoS is more centralized; third, the community has more things that are directly supported by the Solana Foundation.

They pay much attention to applications and like to talk about Depin. The Depin they do is to cooperate with some large companies, sell some hardware, and cooperate with communication companies to build a new Internet. These applications have one characteristic, that is, the demand for decentralization is much lower than that of Ethereum. I think some of the market goals they pursue are really different from those of Ethereum.

If you want a blockchain with "highest performance in the market", Ethereum's L1 will never meet your requirements. You only have two choices. The first is to go to other high-performance blockchains, and the second is to be based on Ethereum L2, including Arbitrum, Base, MegaETH, etc.

So what can Ethereum do that other faster chains can't do? I assure you that it is a long-term decentralized, neutral, and very secure blockchain. You can look at some data charts and compare the decentralization of Ethereum's PoS mining pool and Bitcoin's mining pool, and you will find that Ethereum is more decentralized than Bitcoin.

We have a successful experience and history of solving some of our centralization problems. One example is the client problem. Three years ago, the Ethereum network was using Geth and Prysm, but now no client has more than 52%.

Another example, two years ago we had a crisis with tornado cash. Some people began to ban some encrypted transactions, and everyone was worried that the Ethereum chain would become non-neutral. One year later, you can see the situation, what percentage of the block will block those transactions. You can find that it may be more than 80% two years ago, but now it has been more than 20% or 50%. One or two years later, you can see the results of our solution to these problems.

Ethereum L1 is not the best place for high-performance applications. If you want to make a game, L1 is not the best place either, so we need L2. This is the architecture of Ethereum. The architecture of Ethereum L1 is decentralized, neutral, and secure, and it should be the only one that can be compared with Bitcoin. L2 can focus on the efficiency and speed of transactions and provide a good blockchain for mainstream users.

Joe: Does this mean that the final form of Ethereum should be hidden behind all L2s without being felt?

Vitalik:A little bit. The only surprise is that if no one knows about Ethereum as an asset, it cannot succeed, so from this point of view, Ethereum cannot be completely a background thing.

Ethereum needs to be known to everyone. Ethereum will not be something completely invisible like Google Cloud. The advantage of Ethereum over Google Cloud is that it is invisible under normal circumstances, but it can be seen in the most necessary circumstances. There is such a difference.

So when a particularly necessary situation has not yet occurred, we still have to talk about the existence of Ethereum's L1 and the advantages and characteristics of Ethereum's L1.

Joe: You just mentioned AI. How often do you use AI products? Do you often use products such as ChatGPT?

Vitalik: Yes, I sometimes use ChatGPT. I bought a more powerful GPU for my computer, so I can run some local models. Some of the pictures in my articles are actually drawn by me using local AI.  

Joe: What new things do you think have emerged from the combination of AI and Ethereum?

Vitalik: I feel that AI and Crypto have had a relatively important connection in the past decade, that is, AI has participated in decentralized exchanges. This example is very interesting, and it represents a large and potential category.

What is this category? Crypto can use smart contracts to define the rules of the game, which can ensure that the execution of the game is safe, and AI can participate in the game. What is this game? Decentralized exchanges are the first example, and prediction markets are the second example. There may be more and more examples in the future.

Joe: There are also voices from the outside world saying that from a technical mechanism, Ethereum is becoming more and more centralized. What do you think of this problem?

Vitalik: I find it strange that they say this, because I feel that Ethereum is becoming more and more decentralized. The problem we are facing now is some consequences of decentralization. You can give some examples, such as L1 client development. Five years ago, we only had one client, which was Geth, and now we have Geth, Nethemind, Besu, etc.

Now you can go to a website called ClientDiversity.org, where you can see what percentage of the Ethereum network is using different clients. You will find that Geth has 52%, and others are less. But no client has more than 66% now.

What will happen if Geth has problems now? First, the Ethereum network will not finalize, because finalization requires 66% of the nodes to agree. So there will be a fork, but this fork will not finalize. At this time, the client developers will study which client has problems. When they find that the Geth client has problems, other clients will not change, but Geth will.

This happened once in 2016. Geth used 85% of the network at that time. As a result, everything was normal after 12 hours. Now this network will not finalize. If there are some applications with particularly high security requirements, they will immediately know that there may be a problem and have to wait and confirm. After 12 hours, there will be no problem with the new version of Geth. So the development of client decentralization is very good. You can also look at the companies behind the client and how they get their money. In 2021, the clients are theoretically different companies, and their money is sponsored by the Ethereum Foundation. So it can be said that the degree of decentralization is not that strong in 2021. Why do we do this? Because we want companies with different clients to exist, and we want to give them a chance to grow. Now some client companies do not need the money of the foundation, and we have given very little sponsorship recently. Another one is related to the protocol. Five years ago, I was almost the only protocol researcher. Now we have a research team of at least 20 people, some of whom are from the Ethereum Foundation. In addition to the foundation, we also have some other teams, some people from Paradigm, who will announce some of their own ideas about the protocol, and there are many more teams.

There are also organizations in the Ethereum ecosystem. Five years ago, the largest one in the Ethereum ecosystem was the Ethereum Foundation, the second was Consensys, and there was nothing else. Now we have some client companies that we just mentioned, as well as independent organizations like ETH global, and various wallets, such as Metamask, Rainbow, Trust Wallet, Rabby, etc., while three years ago there was only Metamask.

One ​​of the issues that everyone is particularly concerned about this year is the issue of interoperability. There are many different L2s and many different wallets, and there are some problems with their docking. If we are centralized, we will not have such problems.

So the problem we most hope to solve now is how to maintain a decentralized ecosystem while being able to coordinate in some important areas that need coordination. We can still improve some important standards.

Joe: Just now you said that decentralization also brings some problems. I also found that everyone is discussing, for example, that L2 is fighting on its own and Ethereum cannot form a joint force. What do you think of the view that various ecosystems seem to dilute Ethereum's resources?

Vitalik: I remember that there were a lot of such discussions in August, with different L2 issues and Ethereum activities, and there was a sense of competition. But I found that after everyone talked about these things, L2, wallets, and activities were particularly willing to solve this problem.

We had an L2 and wallet interoperability event in Chiang Mai the day before yesterday. There will be a bigger one at Devcon. They all agree that we need more standards and interoperability between L2s, and are willing to promote this link. I think some people outside, in order to fight Ethereum, will say that L2 is fighting each other, but if you listen to what L2 people say and think, you will find that they don't want to fight, they want to cooperate. Joe: Finally, let's talk about some more personal topics. Confucius said that a man should be established at the age of 30, and you are exactly 30 this year. 10 years ago, you wrote the Ethereum white paper. 10 years later, have you fulfilled your dream at that time? What will you do in the next 10 years? Vitalik: I can say that it is partially completed, and I also found that my understanding of what we need to do has changed a lot. A big change is my thinking. Ten years ago, I would focus on theory and use economics and mathematics to discover new mechanisms. But now this era is different. Most of the mechanisms we can invent have been invented. Now we are not doing it. It is more about optimizing what we have. The optimization process cannot rely on theory. It can be done in some fields, such as cryptography, zero-knowledge proof, etc. But in many fields, the only way is to do experiments. Experiment, see where he succeeds and where he fails, and keep improving.

To give a specific example, I had an ideal idea 10 years ago, I wanted to invent a governance model that can be mathematically proven to be optimal and correct. In many cases, you can prove it mathematically, but there are different participants outside the mechanism, and you can't make a governance mechanism that is definitely stable.

There are some scientists in "The Three-Body Problem" who did a lot of experiments, but in the end they found that physics no longer exists, so they committed suicide. And I feel that economics no longer exists. If we want to do more, our only way is to do experiments. If we want to optimize our public goods mechanism now, the only way we can do it is to do another experiment, change the mechanism, do another experiment, and change our mechanism again. I may do more of this now and in ten years.

Joe: What are your non-Crypto hobbies?

Vitalik: Walking, running, reading different books or different things on the Internet, going to different places to learn different languages.

Joe: What types of books do you like?

Vitalik: Mostly some non-fiction books, economics, history or society, etc. You will see some people on the Internet who will write very long articles, which is actually equivalent to writing a book.

Joe: Where do you usually get your energy from, and how do you adjust yourself in the morning to get the best state?

Vitalik:Probably the most interesting thing about my life is that there are two kinds of jobs. The first kind of job is more introverted, such as writing code, writing articles, and talking about some topics with developers. The second kind of job is extroverted, which is to participate in activities.

I found an interesting point between these two kinds of jobs. One is a break from the other. When you do one too much and need a break, you can do the other.

Joe: Who are your favorite writers, musicians, and philosophers?

Vitalik:This question is really difficult to answer, because it is really hard to say that one is better than the other.

Joe: What would you do if you were not working on Crypto?

Vitalik: Before I entered Crypto, I was doing online education, so I think this is a relatively important topic.

My goal in the past two years is to combine Crypto with other important technical directions. If there is no Crypto, I might also do some Dapp things, including some medical and DCI (Data Center Interconnect) related. And if it is something related to Crypto, I will do Community notes.

Joe: Will you retire? Or disappear like Satoshi Nakamoto.

Vitalik: If I don’t do my current job, I will feel lonely.

Joe: What aspects of Chinese culture do you like most?

Vitalik:I have always felt that the Chinese community has been very friendly. They have all kinds of interesting ideas. They also care about building a particularly good community and the values ​​of Ethereum and blockchain. There are also some simpler points, such as Chinese food is delicious.

Joe: What Chinese food do you like?

Vitalik:Green vegetables, steamed fish.  

Joe: Okay, this conversation is coming to an end. Thank you Vitalik for accepting the interview with Foresight News. I would also like to thank some Web3 practitioners in the Chinese community who followed this interview and provided some questions for this interview, including Mask Network co-founder Yisi, Social Layer co-founder Jiang, Foresight Ventures co-founder Forest, Conflux co-founder Yuanjie, Scroll co-founder Sandy, KOL Jason, etc. Their questions also partially represent the voice of the Chinese community. Of course, I would also like to thank Audrey of Shanhaiwu for her support and photographer Shaka. Thank you everyone.

Vitalik: Okay, thank you.